Banning the exploit on Egypt 2

Eugene · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject:

Allright, so I took some time to think about the issue at hand here. I personally do not believe that we should apply the patch.

I have seen the sentry-arch lose, it has been very rare and most of the time its simply due to poor support from the team. However at the same time, I haven't see the scenario described often. Sure there are two to three sentries but a competent demo/medic can take most of them out. If the entire enemy team consists of nothing but pyro/engineers, then an uber/quick-fix combo is required. Is it stupid? yes, but its how egypt was designed. You need an uber as O to take a point in a full 12v12.

Erwin Rommel · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:27 pm Post subject:

I want to change my vote to the last option Sad

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anonymousity · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject:

It's pretty easy to kill, but if it's ruining fun on the server, I suppose we might as well take it off. Though honestly don't fear this unless the other team is planning their whole strategy around it; use the demoman, have a demoplan, and in sticky situations use the demopan.
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Stealth · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:12 am Post subject:

I've never met you Pharaoh. But I like you.
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Motherfucking Triangles! Being all three sided n' shit, who do they think they are?!

atatme · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:52 am Post subject:

Stealth wrote:

I've never met you Pharaoh. But I like you.

Hes a great guy! Needs to fucking join CT already

Messy Recipe · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:27 am Post subject:

I haven't voted yet but: If we DO patch it, we should use one of the no-build things to specificalt block that spot, rather than disabling Wrangler jumping altogether. Wrangler jumping wouldn't be possible if it wasn't supposed to be possible; the arch issue is because the map was created before Wrangler jumping made getting on top of it easy and never updated after.
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Pharaoh Man · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:26 am Post subject:

Stealth wrote:

I've never met you Pharaoh. But I like you.

Oh, do go on. Smile

USAF 777 wrote:

If we DO patch it, we should use one of the no-build things

This makes so much sense. Of course wrangler jumping isn't the heart of the problem.

massive · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:27 am Post subject:

sleeples wrote:

Legomaniac wrote:

This is TEAM Fortress 2, not ME Fortress 2.

I love you in the most non-gay way possible.

That's gay
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Vlad Piranha wrote:

I'm offended that a zombie holocaust isn't on the list. It would be terrifying, sure, but it would be pretty sweet if you think about it.

Legomaniac · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Pharaoh Man loves you

Pharaoh Man wrote:

Which brings me to my opinion of the Egypt cheat. And yes. It is a cheat.

Calling it a cheat isn't fair, further elaboration:

Pharaoh Man wrote:

Sean "Heyo" Cutino made three great maps which Valve made official. Egypt came out before the wrangler. When Mr. Cutino designed this map, you can tell he cared about its balance and design. He put in some sniper holes, lots of vertical space for double/rocket/sticky jumpers, many alternate routes for spies and pyros, and optimal places for sentries. It's a beautifully designed map for every class.

Very true, go on...

Pharaoh Man wrote:

Is it what the mapmaker intended?

How do we know without looking into updates at all?

Pharaoh Man wrote:

Is it fun?

I think so, but this is just my opinion as well. Thank you for respecting my opinion instead of belittling it. As you do here:

Pharaoh Man wrote:

This is just my opinion. I certainly respect the view of "the game let's you do it, maps evolve over time, a good team will always beat it." I think that in this case, the sentry (which requires absolutely zero skill to set up and tank) changes the map in such a drastic fashion that the game becomes less fun for both teams. I've seen the server full late at night, everyone having great games, then a little bit of team stacking, and the sentry comes up, and within ten minutes the server is empty.

This isn't ME Fortress, where the fundamentals of the entire game are completely changed by the one member and the rest of the team doesn't matter at all. This is TEAM Fortress, where every player, no matter what class they are, has a chance of turning the tide and winning.

Thanks to whoever actually read this.

In closing, you're welcome for reading. I missed lunch because of it, lol, but that's only because i'm passionate about my opinion as are you. I see where you are coming from, but calling it a cheat isn't right unless we know the map creator's intention. With an ever-evolving game, you could call any new addition of skill that creates exploits a cheat if you follow this logic. And while some people might consider a new ability OP, I think it is up to the map creator to decide whether it cripples the balance beyond what was intended, and fix it accordingly if so. This is why I am willing to play on a modified map that doesn't allow building on the arch, but i'll be damned if I get my rocket jump taken away. It's just too damn fun.

You also did a good job working your argument to support my clever play on words. Touché.

anonymousity · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject:

Are we for sure on the fact that it eliminates the sentry jump? That's a global function and seems hard to edit serverside.

Also to note, if it is the case; we're a bunch of talented, source-knowing game developing mother fuckers, why don't we just patch it ourselves?
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Vlad Piranha · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject:

Remember that, when the game came out, it was patched so noone could stand on a dispenser aside from the Engineer that built it as an effort to cut down on exploits and griefing. It isn't outlandish to think that the Engineer who built a sentry should be the only one who can't be thrown skyward from its rocket blast. I'm pretty disappointed and upset that this mechanic has carelessly been left in the game. From the usual Valve design standpoint, it's a horrible idea.

Grenades were taken out of Team Fortress 2 because, in Team Fortress Classic, anyone could, for all intents and purposes, rocket jump to places they weren't supposed to be as their class. Imagine every single class using grenades to jump to the balcony in 2fort. It diluted the novelty and class-specific recognition of that rocket jump tactic. The logic was that only one class should be known for something like that, the Soldier, if any at all.

I still hope and pray that the game will have that removed someday. It's not as though the Engineer would be potentially helpless without it, like narrowing the backstab region of the Spy in an effort to prevent that facestab glitch would. This would just be better overall game design.

Stealth · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject:

This seems like it's on a cliff of some kind. Should just be possible to put some massive invisible wall. Mind you, I have no point of reference to judge it.
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Motherfucking Triangles! Being all three sided n' shit, who do they think they are?!

tru.pairadocs · Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject:

I like the idea of making the arch a "no-build" area, that way engies can still sentry/rocket jump in egypt but can't exploit the arch
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junkyard · Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:20 pm Post subject:

i guess i'll weigh in, reiterating some of what others have said, albeit from my point of view.

for blu team, with the exception of a very organized group or one with a good demo-medic pair, the obstacle of facing a base up there is uninteresting, and frustrating. on defense, things often are reduced to a deathmatch-like environment. just rack up those kills, don't worry about the objective of guarding your point.

on a personal level, it pisses me off. during setup time if i see an engie on my team going for the arch, i know i can't count on them for defending the first point. they're effectively useless for several minutes into the round. further, if point 1 falls, the challenge of making a shifting defense is changed into a turtle-fest, and support for your teammates is largely nonexistant. an engie's job isn't to build a fortress, but rather support their team. how much healing is your dispenser doing, up there? is your tele providing a good mobility option for your teammates? and not to sound like a douche, but any time i see someone building there, i work my ass off to make sure point 1 doesnt get capped. because they deserve to feel useless and unsupportive.

i would love to see the spot be unbuildable. that being said, making wrangler-jumping impossible is in no way a good one. you're getting rid of a creative and challenging mobility option that was intended by the devs. to me, nothing in tf2 is as exciting as the few times i've been able to wrangler-jump into the thick of a strong defense while carrying a lvl3, deploying, and wasting an entire team. it rarely happens like that, but remove the possibility, and you just lowered my class' skill ceiling, my ability to be creative, and the amount of fun i can have on the server. you might as well play with other class abilities too, that airblast sure is stupid :p

tldr: the map wasn't designed with the ability to build there as a possibility, it completely alters the map's balance, and at the heart of it, its a lazy tactic. but leave my wrangler out of this.

anonymousity · Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject:

I agree with junkie especially on the point of the top-building engineers no longer being useful to the team other then cutting off the enterances. I would like to emphasize the point that if any of you want to punish the guys that do this, use the loch-n-load. You will never have trouble ruining all their shit and it's incredibly satisfying. Honestly the only reason I would selfishly not do a thing about this problem is because of how irrelevant it is to my playstyle. That being said, not everyone is graced with a loch-n-load or the ability to use it effectively so we probably should start researching how to edit the map and wall off that area.
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