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PS4 Vs. Xbox One Debate

 
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Stealth
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Joined: 13 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:38 pm 
Post subject: PS4 Vs. Xbox One Debate
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Lol, jk. There is no debate who won. Laughing
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Hirmuinen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:00 pm 
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I disagree.
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Draco
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:12 pm 
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The winner is obvious...The WiiU.
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Berry Punch
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Draco wrote:
The winner is obvious...The WiiU.


Of course the WiiU won, it brought Super Smash Bros back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zlz-WOglHgo

Oh that reminds me... don't forget the return of dis guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmCVzjGVFy4
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tru.pairadocs
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:00 pm 
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RCSI
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:52 pm 
Post subject: Re: PS4 Vs. Xbox One Debate
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Stealth wrote:
Lol, jk. There is no debate who won. Laughing



You're right, there is no debate that the PC has won this round yet again.
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Erwin Rommel
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:27 am 
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Remember how horribly the PS3 did last launch? Microsoft and Sony are just switching roles, that's all.
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Hirmuinen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:02 am 
Post subject: Re: PS4 Vs. Xbox One Debate
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RCSI wrote:
Stealth wrote:
Lol, jk. There is no debate who won. Laughing



You're right, there is no debate that the PC has won this round yet again.


PC is the real winner here at least if you look at the last generation launch and ports after that. Now even Metal Gear Solid 5 might come to PC, or they are thinking about it. Not only getting the best version of the 3, but also getting them much cheaper on sales and so on.



But I don't think PS4 did anything to say it won. XboxO had much more exclusives and Sony nearly nothing. Or nothing to show, like people are oozing themselves over some 1886 teaser trailer or Mad Max. Plus I liked the MS presentations better because it moved a lot faster. Like game after game, say what you want but I thought it was done more professionally. They didn't need to take some cheap shots with indie games or anything, they showed the numbers and didn't have to prove anything after that.


3 things people don't like are used games policy, needing internet and kinect.

I think the outcry over used games is really over blown. Like games will be digital and locked to your account soon, just like they are on PC. Theres no used game market on PC because of that and while this same outcry over Steam/Origin/Impulse(now Gamestop) was on PC there is no more of that. People got used to it and most are glad because PC gaming market is thriving now. That's all thanks to no second hand market and embracing the online/digital content. And what it means is less hands to share the profit, publishers want to push it this way and MS is just the first one to take that step right now. Who knows how this will affect the games on Xboxone, like will it get more exclusive games because of this?

I think I am the only one who actually liked that MS guy answering the question about what about us without internet connection, and he just said then don't buy it with a face like who cares. They have their statistics/numbers and this device is clearly made online and internet first, like everything they are showing is about online and so on. If you don't have online then don't buy it, get something else, you are not the consumber MS wants to sell this. I think it's simple as that. But I think they will change this before the console comes out.

Kinect is something I don't think many needs and including it is kinda strange. But then again they probably want to avoid fragmantation, I woudn't be against if I had a kinect right now. Like the whole enchanting your tv with this Xboxone and getting smart tv functions to me sounds like a big plus. I have heard people complaining well what if you already have smart tv what functions can this do for us? Maybe nothing, but these tvs costs tons of money compared with tvs without smart functions, so to me this seems much better way plus you get voice/hand command.


Like this whole discussion about only wanting a console for gaming is really something I used to do when GameCube came out. It didn't have a dvd player or online thing worth of your time and I really wanted to have them instead of buying adapters or a dvd player. The more stuff you can have on your box especially if you get smart tv with it. Maybe these things are not something you want, but to me Sony's PS4 feels like this gen console(with better hardware) while Xboxone is aiming for future and stuff to do besides gaming(remember more exclusives on XboxOne currently), so I don't understand what is with this PS4 won clearly shouting.

Just my thoughts. Instead of calling it Xbox One, they should call it XONE.
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Stealth
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Joined: 13 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:24 pm 
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PC is its own beast and is ignored.

Quote:
"But I don't think PS4 did anything to say it won. XboxO had much more exclusives and Sony nearly nothing..."

This is true for opening launch by around 5-6 titles. However, developers are running into problems.


"All we know is we've tried to get our games on their platform and we can't do it....Sony lets you self-publish and they don't make you pay for updates. Microsoft requires you to have a publisher. They have no digital distribution strategy and they require you to pay $10,000." *

If they stick to the current model, PS4 will have more exclusives and more games.


Quote:
"I think the outcry over used games is really over blown. Like games will be digital and locked to your account soon, just like they are on PC. "


Consoles exist because of their one requirement, a TV. There's lots of people out there that don't want to buy a PC as it's costly, have no room, not technical savvy, or just because they want the exclusives.

A major perk of consoles was the ability to share your games to others. On a PC, you had to buy a game to play with your friends, there was no testing it out(demos helped).

I think PC locking sucks. For years I wanted to trade my old games back in and was baffled when I couldn't. If it wasn't for Steam, I wouldn't be nearly as pleased with their model.

Now one could argue that Xbox One may go to this model and keep the prices cheaper; However even if implemented, People used to try to save money buy selling stuff they had already purchased. Restricting that also keeps the demographic down (explained below).

Finally, there's still millions in rural areas on dialup. They can't download 30-50mb of games.


Quote:
" If you don't have online then don't buy it, get something else, you are not the consumber MS wants to sell this."


This is similar to them saying "tough shit." But, let's map out their demographic:

$499 Console w/Kinect
$59.99 Gold Subscription(1st year free for day one consoles)**
~$70 internet connection
~Each buy your own games
~Internet regionally locked

So this means to use it, you need to shell out more money than intended, else this thing is a brick. This seems like less of a gaming system and more of a "luxury home box."

The demographic seems to be families with high incomes.



Quote:
"Like the whole enchanting your tv with this Xboxone and getting smart tv functions to me sounds like a big plus."


This furthers the thought that they're pushing away from the gaming market. I could get most of the features on a Roku for $79(with no subscription), minus the games, making the Xbox useless.

Furthermore, the non-gaming contents would be regionally locked. So people overseas can't watch Netflix, Hulu Plus, etc. For pushing a smart TV box, it limits the regions further for full usage.


But out of all of this, there's only one thing that pissed me off more than anything:

Microsoft basically said, "Fuck you, stick with the 360." As someone who loved Xbox more than the Playstations, this was the same guys who told me that if I didn't like it, then I get to luck out. As if none of us even mattered at all. They were so smug about their product that they failed to see the flaws in their own creation which was something their fans pointed out and they shit all over them.

Solution: Drop the requirement for Kinect and Internet. Allow games to be downloaded optional. This would most likely put the Xbox ahead.

TL;DR, There's only one solution: Revamp the Xbox to make it more accessible for players instead of teling them "Fuck you."

*http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/14/developers-explain-leaning-towards-playstation-4-over-xbox-one
**http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/day-one-edition-of-xbox-one-includes-1-free-year-of-xbox-gold-19889
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Hirmuinen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Stealth wrote:


The demographic seems to be families with high incomes.

This furthers the thought that they're pushing away from the gaming market. I could get most of the features on a Roku for $79(with no subscription), minus the games, making the Xbox useless.

Furthermore, the non-gaming contents would be regionally locked. So people overseas can't watch Netflix, Hulu Plus, etc. For pushing a smart TV box, it limits the regions further for full usage.


But out of all of this, there's only one thing that pissed me off more than anything:

Microsoft basically said, "Fuck you, stick with the 360." As someone who loved Xbox more than the Playstations, this was the same guys who told me that if I didn't like it, then I get to luck out. As if none of us even mattered at all. They were so smug about their product that they failed to see the flaws in their own creation which was something their fans pointed out and they shit all over them.

Solution: Drop the requirement for Kinect and Internet. Allow games to be downloaded optional. This would most likely put the Xbox ahead.


Yes. They want the audiance that Apple holds right now. The company who can release Iphone and make their market cap higher than Microsofts. Someone who can get 40% margins from their products. Only rich assholes can buy this thing(like everyone living in western world).

I have no doubt that Microsoft knows what they are doing. They have researched this, they want to aim the current xbox live userbase. The people who are currently the ones who makes most profit for Microsoft and publishers. They don't care about used games buyers or some sub-sahara gamer who can't connect to internet. Theres nothing else to it. Apple has showed that you can be the most profitable company without the most reach to userbases. And this is the market Microsoft is aiming for. Nintendo has their niche, Sony with PS4 the numbers, but MS aims to take home the profits. Cynic me wants to see things this way.

But it's not as simple as this. Of course MS wants to appeal to most people as possible, but if you are not bringing in the money needed then it is just the way it is. Like I said MS is aiming for the future and 1st year or 2nd year sales might not matter, because the future is digital and MS covered it up. Prices will go down and the speed in which internet has reached the developing world is fastening as we speak.


I might post something tomorrow as I have done some heavy deep fishing this evening.
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Hirmuinen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:56 am 
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Stealth wrote:

"All we know is we've tried to get our games on their platform and we can't do it....Sony lets you self-publish and they don't make you pay for updates. Microsoft requires you to have a publisher. They have no digital distribution strategy and they require you to pay $10,000." *



That is indie developers?

It is true, but still MS is by far more popular among indie titles with their Xbox live arcade games. Like many recent year indie titles came from there to PC. I think it was Sonys thing to show that we are going to be more indie friendly, like it was on them to prove not Microsofts because they already are doing it. While I really like some of the indie games, they are not a system mover.

Cost is not everyting. Like Apple store is by far most popular and makes most money, even if app developers could release them much cheaper on Android and maybe even Microsoft Windows Phone, but that's where the consumers are and money making happens.




Heres one article from Gamespot that was released day or two ago.

http://www.gamespot.com/e3/bleszinski-says-disc-based-market-crumbling-6410200/

I have heard similar things how used game market hurts the industry. I can clearly see why, like when I bought PS3 all of my games are used, maybe one or two titles are new. So even if I already have like 10-11 games theres not a single € that went to supporting this industry, only retailers take in massive profits from this.

I can't blame them(publishers for wanting to lock your games on an account), even tho. Sony's system is really not that good. Tons of games are missing and they are so lazy at adding them. Imagine how big profits publishers and devs would get if they just embrace this digital store more. I bought Silent Hill from PS store and played it through, I would buy more Silent Hill games, but they are not there. That is the strenght of current PC market, we had to sacrifice some of our consumer rights but in return got much more thriving market and old/new games available. I believe XONE will do this aswell when people get tired of their power tripping and starts to hate something else for a while.

But I'm not really a big console gamer. Any FPS is instant throw up when mentioned gamepad and console, or cover based 3rd person shooter(some are good, but need to have story and setting that are interesting, plus big boss battles) uuugugggbxxcbcg...
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Stealth
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Joined: 13 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:58 pm 
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The fact that you agree that only rich people should have this is disturbing and it goes completely against your second post. But before I get to that, I'll debunk your points.

-Xbox live arcade games are only popular due to the accessibility of the titles and ease of use.

Sony saw this and jumped on this bandwagon with PS4. Xbox 360 is a better gaming experience as it's designed around the gamer. It's not some multi-box functionality that's meant to replace a cable box/smart tv, it's meant and bred for gaming. The added features are significant bonuses. Who would want to buy an Xbox *just* to watch netflix streaming or other online stream? No one.

-Cost isn't everything, but in a world recession, it can make or break it.



Now the big misconception:

-Bleszinski is wrong and is using propaganda to gain more funding.

Used games don't hurt the industry nearly as bad as you would think. When a developer makes a game, they need publishers and licenses. This makes it extremely hard for start up businesses to gain a foothold into the industry as they need some way to get their product to the consumer. They'll overcharge a percent of the profits calling it "risky" when they clearly know it'll do well.

"But that's just a business transaction."

Negatory. Remember Life of Pi?

A blockbuster smash hit which raked in a metric fuck ton of money(600 million). Rhythm and Hues made all of that happen. And what happened? They went bankrupt. How?!?! Their publishers gave them a flat payment for their services. No matter how much money Life of Pi made, they never saw a single dime of it.

Now take that and apply it games because they do the same fucking thing. No matter how many times you buy the same game on digital download, it *never* goes to the developers unless the developers publish it themselves.

Publishers hate used games and they hate it because instead of the money going to them, they go to the consumers. Consumers can shop around for a lower price or wait out the market. Imagine if I had still had to pay $60 just to play Ocarina of Time because the only way to get a hold of it is to download it.

With Sony allowing you to self-publish that means that it will be the new Steam (but for console) since Developers can keep their money and you will be paying them directly.

Stating that Microsoft is "seeing the future" by appealing to rich bastards and not gamers and then stating that they're catering to the indie market for gamers are stark contrasts of one another.

Edit:

A final note that just because the PS4 accepts disks, doesn't mean that it doesn't forbade downloading games as well.
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Hirmuinen
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Stealth wrote:

Used games don't hurt the industry nearly as bad as you would think. When a developer makes a game, they need publishers and licenses. This makes it extremely hard for start up businesses to gain a foothold into the industry as they need some way to get their product to the consumer. They'll overcharge a percent of the profits calling it "risky" when they clearly know it'll do well.


Theres no such thing as risk free profit. At least not in a market this competive. That's the way it is, if you are getting funded and make it possible to do what you do and take profit from it, then you are a employed by this financer. You are not a free man if someone is giving you money to do something. That doesn't mean deals are one sided, but it's obvious the one who finances it gets to call the terms. If the money making with such a product would be idiot proof, then there would be tons of other people/publishers to fund the project with better terms. Lots of great games have flopped because they didn't appeal to wide enough audiance. Some of my most favourite game devs aren't here anymore because of that, so it's not so rosy for "indie like" devs who have to carry the risk themselves, they are still bind by the market rules to make profit. If it was so simple as evil publishers takes all the profit while fucking you up, then something like Remedy would have left and just self publish from now on(they haven't so theres something to gain here...). Minecraft dude has made millions as far as I know.

If the publisher does 100% of the funding and you have no negotiation skill or enough value to bargain then theres no other way around it. That's the way it's supposed to be. You are still getting paid and the better the product does the more you will get for your next product with bigger paychecks.


Stealth wrote:
Publishers hate used games and they hate it because instead of the money going to them, they go to the consumers. Consumers can shop around for a lower price or wait out the market. Imagine if I had still had to pay $60 just to play Ocarina of Time because the only way to get a hold of it is to download it.


Why are they making sales on Steam or any other sites? Is it because they are getting covered by these sites/steam the price difference or is it because they want to sell their products? Why are they doing this on pc market that is already limited because of piracy and it doesn't have used game market? I don't believe in that logic that console market would be that different if the service was ready for it and pushed forward to it.



I think this current system is far better than the kickstarter one for example. In that model theres no publishers, meaning less people to have jobs. No risk taking who has some responsibility, instead risk takers are the consumers/customers. Risk takers gets no profit even though they made it possible to have a succes story/game, they will however lose their money if it flops. It would end up being like the current system where the most popular titles would get funded, but would only make the makers rich and funders getting nothing(only the game). Money would end up in fewer hands.


But I understand what you are saying. It's a good thing more smaller studios can do business with lesser cost, but I doubt it will be a big market. It could potentially make some devs like Remedy who self published their Alan Wake on PC to make something happen(not that it's going to happen because of MS). I can still understand why it hasn't been possible before because they are not making profit by selling the console.


I think you are too focused on indie titles. Like these really small ones. New engine/next gen type of games have hundreds maybe even thousands of people working on them. That kind of funding doesn't happen with just dreaming of indie world. And many devs actually want to realize their dreams by having that kind of manpower behind their products. It's not like movie producers have to lose their vision because they are making movies for dreamworks.






I was referring to Apple vs Android with whose making more profit. Sure Anrdoid has much more marketshare but still Apple is the one who people buy their stuff while only the rich can afford it. Xone still has games, like we both said more exclusives than PS4, so it does appeal to gamers, plus it is more future proof because it has a lot more extra stuff without losing on games front at the moment. It's the only console that actually does something new besides just gaming(PS3 blu-ray which was a risk but they came through and is one of those big plusses when owning it). And that the world is moving fast, like Africas gdp is rising really fast, and they are speculating that in 10 years it will have to same growth as China had couple of decades ago. That is what I mean with future proof. Not just marketshare but profits, and only reason to get that kind of profits is to offer some really good service, for those with money to spare. It can be the future, at least the one weterners will enjoy and those who are better off in 3rd world cou



This is getting so off-topic. I can't even remember half of the Xone stuff anymore and can't remember anything form PS4 press conference. And now they made 180 turn with their DRM. Even if they would have had all of their DRM stuff and so I would still prefer this Xone over PS4 just because it feels like it's moving forward instead of just improving what we currently have. They made PR mistakes, like even if I liked what they said it was clear majority of people woudn't, so it was self caused hatred that was taken way out of proportion.

I typed like 3 times a different text and deleted it. It's just hard to do when in the end I really don't care about consoles that much. Only reason why I bought PS3 is because it had couple of JRPGs that Xbox didn't have(even though it would have costed me nearly 100€ less). I only watched E3 and then nothing. And arguments where we snip text and then add our own views while siding the other views we end up having arguments about bread toasters that end up in who could have won WW2. Now it's about indie games and publishers.

You can ignore this text or not, make some sense out of it. I'm all out of juice...I need some liquid balancing...
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