Banning the exploit on Egypt 2

atatme · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: Banning the exploit on Egypt 2

There have been requests to ban the exploit area on Egypt 2 2nd cap point where you build on the arch after sentry and or exploit jumping up there. There is a fix that will make that entire arch un-build able, fixing the issue, if it truly is that. However, the arch is easy to deal with on its own by demos or using the gate to get behind them. Pharoh argued that that is true, and that the problem with the exploit isn't that its unbeatable. The problem is that its super unfun to play against and its not really that fun to use either. That point is open to debate, but the poll is about whether we should ban the exploit entirely. Share your thoughts, please.

Eugene · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject:

The link to the patch:
http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=132222

Tawxic · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject:

I don't think we need a patch or a cap limit.

Draco · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject:

I'm not that great with the Source stuff (yet) but would it be possible to set the mod to a vote in-game. If you were to have it similar to the vote for all-talk then that would allow the community the choice to turn it on or off, that way if people want to keep it vanilla they can but if someone's abusing the exploit like crazy it can be stopped.

Erwin Rommel · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject:

If it's actually a patch, I could go either way. I'd against using admin powers to, say, kick people who do it. But I'm fine with modifying the map.
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tru.pairadocs · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject:

Draco wrote:

I'm not that great with the Source stuff (yet) but would it be possible to set the mod to a vote in-game. If you were to have it similar to the vote for all-talk then that would allow the community the choice to turn it on or off, that way if people want to keep it vanilla they can but if someone's abusing the exploit like crazy it can be stopped.

If this could be done I don't see why not at least have the option there
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Legomaniac · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject:

The "fix" that is linked to isn't a fix for the map, it simply denies engineers from rocket jumping. No doubt about it, when engineers got the Wrangler, it was Valve's intention to enable them to utilize it just like the soldier's rocket jump. If we were to ban the engineer from rocket jumping, it would seem crass and unfair to continue to let soldiers to do so at all times.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that "it isn't fun to play or play against either". I have had tons of fun up there, plowing through noobs. Most of the time I don't even camp it, but I go battle engie down of the ground and leave it up there to lay waste.

That being said, it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO DEFEAT, NOR IS IT UNFUN TO PLAY AGAINST. I have seen nony's eyes light up as he told me: "I love it when engies build up there, it's just nothing but points for me!" It is also very hard for me to comprehend why someone would think it is unfun. The name of this game is TEAM fortress 2, and situations like this DEMAND teamwork. Part of the appeal of TF2 is being able to pair up with someone to go invincible. This "exploit" is defeatable with one ubered demo, and the point is rushable with two.

When I notice complaints about it in the server chat (inevitably from some unexpecting noobs) I explain that I got up there with the wrangler jump, and that if they can get their shit together and get an ubered demo in there it is defeatable. I mean, I GO OUT OF MY WAY to tell them how to defeat it, and it still rakes in points. At this point I don't even consider it an exploit, because it isn't my fault if one demo can't coordinate with one medic on the other team to shut my shit down, after I spelled it out for them in chat.

TLDR: There is already a fix for this "exploit". It's called an uber-charge. Complaining about it only indicates a lack of cooperation on the other team.

Eugene · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject:

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, by applying this patch it makes D a little less retarded on egypt2. Also I find what happens quite frequently is: Team A gets to egypt 2 O. They take point 1 due to all the derp engies building point on point 2. Team B defends and are now on offense on egypt1, they get dreamcrushed and are on D again. Team A makes it to egypt2 by a close margin and the whole system repeats itself.

The question we should be asking is not do we want the patch, but do we want to go put our foot in this door? When people come to our server, they expect certain things. If we start modifying game play, this can lead more and more requests being made.
Which leads us into a hidden issue that should be considered. Many of us didn't even care much about this issue until Pharaoh Man brought it up as part of his ultimatum(First server to apply the patch gets his name, CT or MiT). I like the guy alright, but I don't think we should be hopping through hoops in order to get him to wear the tag.

Now as for the matter of the actual patch, I don't care either way. It might make egypt2 less about ubers and more about outplaying them but at the same time, if D needs to rely on cheap tactics then they will usually get dreamcrushed the following round.

Stealth · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I'm too wishy-washy to have an opinion and am basically useless

This is actually an option? An option that insults someone for an uncertainty after you complained about authors creating polls showing biased opinions?

/facepalm

If Valve hasn't changed it or updated it, then I'd leave it as is. If the patch is created by Valve, then use it. If it's just a fan made patch, ignore it.
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Legomaniac · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject:

sleeples wrote:

The question we should be asking is not do we want the patch, but do we want to go put our foot in this door?

No, we don't want to put our foot in this door.

When people don't understand how the engies got up there, or how to defeat it, we need to explain to them how it happened, and how to get past it. This not only educates noobs to make them better players, but it also keeps the game as the way Valve intended it. Stripping the engies of rocket jump is NOT a solution, be it by slowing them down or it doing more damage. Why else would the wrangler have been introduced, only for getting out of range shots? Then why can you fire rockets with the wrangler?

As far as Pharoh, if he needs modified rules just to join CT, what kind of modifications will he be requesting once he is in CT? To me, if you know how to beat it, and you don't follow that advice, anything more is just complaining about not getting your way. That is not teamwork. This is TEAM Fortress 2, not ME Fortress 2.

Eugene · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject:

Legomaniac wrote:

This is TEAM Fortress 2, not ME Fortress 2.

I love you in the most non-gay way possible.

Pharaoh Man · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: Pharaoh Man loves you

Hey guys. I see my name being thrown around a lot in this thread so I thought I'd make a post and clear some things up.

First. I did make an ultimatum along the lines of "Atatme, if you fix the Egypt cheat I'll totally join your clan." However, this was made in jest with my good friend.

Sure, I'm interested in CT. I like pretty much everyone I've played with and everyone seems laid back. We have a good time playing, and I even got to stand in during a clan-only event and I had a blast. I didn't mean for my ultimatum to be public knowledge and represent everything I stand for. I have no intention of making demands of you guys. You can do whatever you feel is right.

Egypt has been my favorite map for over two years. I chose my TF2 handle based on it (and Mega Man, of course). I love Egypt, but right now it has cancer.

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Which brings me to my opinion of the Egypt cheat. And yes. It is a cheat.

Sean "Heyo" Cutino made three great maps which Valve made official. Egypt came out before the wrangler. When Mr. Cutino designed this map, you can tell he cared about its balance and design. He put in some sniper holes, lots of vertical space for double/rocket/sticky jumpers, many alternate routes for spies and pyros, and optimal places for sentries. It's a beautifully designed map for every class.

Then the arch sentry shows up. The arch sentry, which is not even a sentry at all if you think about it, but rather an abomination.

Think about it. Sentries are:
- powerful against any class which doesn't pay attention and stumbles in its path
- weak to spies
- weak against any ubered power class
- safety guards to protect a point, giving your team somewhere safe to run back to

The abomination is powerful against everything that isn't ubered, as well as everything that is ubered, besides a demoman.

It's all but immune to spies, so you can't simultaneously sap it and have a soldier pelt it a few times.

It covers all three entrances to the point. It covers the point itself. You can't really flank it from both sides, because the rest of the team will immediately kill you. You have to choose whether to aim for the sentry or the teammates, something you don't have to do with any other sentry.

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Yes, an uber demo will kill it. This is not something I expect new players to know. A broken mechanic which only has one real counter is not a part of a team game. To me, this is the equivalent to a spy that can never die and always gets facestabs, and can only be killed by hitting him with the Boston Basher immediately followed by a Detonator flare within 10 seconds.

If someone builds the abomination and my team is all new players, we can't just rely on TF2 fundamentals to win the game. If we even know the counter, a few of us have to "clock in", and switch to demo and medic. Then we have to survive for 60 seconds or so, somehow communicate to the rest of the team to attack whenever we do, and destroy both the sentry and teleporter, otherwise it will be back up in 30 seconds. This is what BLU has to do to win.

For RED to win, they have to do very little. RED could sit around with their melee weapons out and hack at people who get too close and have a good chance at winning.

But of course, they usually don't.

The main strength of the sentry is that flanking becomes impossible. RED members don't have to worry about anyone capping the point. They've already won. That means they can throw themselves at the BLU team regardless of the consequences. Now BLU is fighting people on point 1, and if RED is good enough, BLU is getting spawncamped when they already captured point 1. BLU has no options except to clock in at their unpaid job and hope the demo+medic can open that 30-second window so the game becomes fair again.

When playing 2fort, one team goes all demo and puts sticky grenades on the spawn doors and detonates as soon as they open. They get tons of kills and win every game. Is it legal? Sure. Does the game allow you to do it? Of course. Does that mean a server is wrong for making a note saying "Don't put stickies on the spawn door?", though it should be common sense?

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While a bit embarrassing, sometimes if I see a known offender on RED, I will switch teams. I will call out his progress so a BLU soldier can rocket jump quickly there and destroy the sentry. I will direct BLU as best as I can to destroy the sentry. I will stand on the ideal sentry spot so the engy has to place it a few feet behind him, so it will only mow down 99% of the opponents it sees rather than 100%. Is this legal? I'm directly opposing the fun of one player though exploiting the game mechanics. However, if I didn't, that one player would exploit the game mechanics himself to ruin the game for many more than one player.

When you vote, ask yourself.

Is it fair?

Is it what the mapmaker intended?

Is it fun?

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This is just my opinion. I certainly respect the view of "the game let's you do it, maps evolve over time, a good team will always beat it." I think that in this case, the sentry (which requires absolutely zero skill to set up and tank) changes the map in such a drastic fashion that the game becomes less fun for both teams. I've seen the server full late at night, everyone having great games, then a little bit of team stacking, and the sentry comes up, and within ten minutes the server is empty.

This isn't ME Fortress, where the fundamentals of the entire game are completely changed by the one member and the rest of the team doesn't matter at all. This is TEAM Fortress, where every player, no matter what class they are, has a chance of turning the tide and winning.

Thanks to whoever actually read this.

tru.pairadocs · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject:

If I can just add one or two things:

As a spy, I can't do SHIT while there are sentries on the pillars/arch there as it can basically just shoot me anywhere around that point. My only option unless I want to have a 0:20 K Very Happy

ratio is to go another class like demo or medic. This is a little troubling to me because a single sentry is basically denying a whole class for a good portion of the game (and spy isn't the only class being denied).

The other thing is without a good demo+medic pair plus teammates to back them up against pyros and such, it's almost hopeless. So now you've slimmed it down to 2 classes in which you need experienced players. And sometimes thats not even enough if they built sentries around the arch too because those blast you back. So then you need another experienced demo+medic pair to also go in SIMULTANEOUSLY. All the while mind you you have to be fighting off kamakazi red pyros, spies and the like from getting your medics and just pushing your team back to spawn.

Oh, and if Red decides to uber or kritz push it gets even worse.

But anyways, that's just my 2 cents worth. I've been playing Egypt for well over 2 years as well and I had the most fun pre-wrangler update. I can live with how it is now, but I think this patch should be considered at the very least as a in-game Voteable option. If people are on then who want to build there like Lego then fine, they can simply vote no.
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2shoes · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject:

i have hats fuck the arch
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Eugene · Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject:

2shoes wrote:

i have hats fuck the arch

QFE