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A Programmer's Rant

 
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Stealth
▲RAWR TRIANGLE RAWR▲


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:41 pm 
Post subject: A Programmer's Rant
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Program Developers: Fuck you and your environmental path variable installs.

What is it about programming languages where you have to install a shit ton of packages just to be able to begin programming?! I have installed so many packages that it's fucking ridiculous. A lot of them being optional, but almost a necessity due to the time it saves.

I swear to god it must be like a rite to passage sort of thing. Like "You must be this smart and pass our installation test in order to become one of us."

A list of much needed changes:

-Make a fucking installer like everyone else
-In that installer modify my fucking path so I don't have to keep updating it.
-Quit using the god damn command lines. Yes, you're good at doing commands, but just be fucking lazy for once.
-Stop giving me vague pages of commands to tell me what to do. Take a look at this example.


Code:
How to get Django

Django is available open-source under the BSD license. It requires Python version 2.6.5 or higher, but it has no dependencies on other Python libraries. There are several ways you can get it:

Option 1. Get the latest official version
The latest official version is 1.5.1. You can get it by direct download:

First, download Django-1.5.1.tar.gz (checksums). Then:

tar xzvf Django-1.5.1.tar.gz
cd Django-1.5.1
sudo python setup.py install
You can also use pip:

pip install Django==1.5.1
Option 2. Get the latest development version
The latest and greatest Django version is the one that's in our Git repository (our revision-control system). Get it using this shell command, which requires Git:

git clone https://github.com/django/django.git

You can also download a zipped archive of the development version.

After you get it
See the installation guide for further instructions. Make sure you read the documentation that corresponds to the version of Django you've just installed.

And be sure to sign up for the django-users mailing list, where other Django users and the Django developers themselves all hang out to help each other.


That's the download page and it tells me jack shit on how to even download the damn thing. These commands are for a linux command prompt and NOT for windows. And since I'm on Windows, I'm shit out of luck and have to guess what my version of these commands are.

Try Option 2? If I was new, What the fuck is Git and why should I care? I want Django, not fiddling with something else just to get Django merely to make it work.



-If you need something extremely important in order make your projects anything and to make it less problematic later one, then bundle it with the damn thing.

For example the virtualenv is important as when you create a project A and then later a new Python releases and you create project B, when you go back to A, A will no longer work because it's not compatible. So you use virtualenv to create an isolated environment for each project, thus eliminating bad compatibility.

That sounds PRETTY FUCKING IMPORTANT. Why is this not included?! When my project goes to shit, I'm going to flip some motherfucking tables. STEP. UP. YO. GAME.


- Quit merging installation guides

Take a look at this link: http://www.virtualenv.org/en/latest/#installation

Can you decipher that shit? Which one is windows? How about Mac or Linux? They broke it down by categories instead of operating systems. So I don't know which one goes to what and which they refer to. It's taken me hours to get through all of these steps and I keep going back and forth. And that's another thing.


-I shall stab every man that makes documentation guides with shitty documentation.

This is by far my greatest problem with programmers. They're so technical, but they're so lazy. When I was programming in MEL in Maya, I read their ENTIRE manual with lists of commands, front to back. It was mainly a bunch of commands with tags. The tags allow me to manipulate parts of a geometry directly through code. However, not ONCE, was Query every mentioned. Instead, they give you these stupid fucking symbols.

CQEM

http://download.autodesk.com/us/maya/2010help/CommandsPython/addAttr.html

At the bottom, you can see what they mean. But no where does it tell you how to do it. In order to learn it, I had to comb through the examples to see their usage and reverse solve the problem. It wasn't until later releases, they added a separate Python documentation that I had to read that semi explained it (They still do a piss poor job at it).


Fuck it, I'm done. /rant.
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Erwin Rommel
Elite
Elite


Joined: 02 Aug 2005
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 10:28 pm 
Post subject: Re: A Programmer's Rant
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Stealth wrote:
I swear to god it must be like a rite to passage sort of thing. Like "You must be this smart and pass our installation test in order to become one of us.


This attitude is actually quite common in many circles.
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Messy Recipe
El Gran Capitán
<b>El Gran Capitán</b>


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Location: Inter Veritates
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:09 pm 
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lmao

I could nitpick on a ton of thise post but I'll just pick one thing because I don't want to really bother getting into this kind of discussion, and this is gonna be long enough as it is...

Quote:
If you need something extremely important in order make your projects anything and to make it less problematic later one, then bundle it with the damn thing.


If they did this they'd piss a ton more people off than just the couple that can't figure out where to find the dependencies.

They'd either have a version other than the one you want, a version other than the one you have, or the same version as you already have.... only in the case that you A) don't already have the other thing installed and B) happen to want to the version that's included, would it be worth it to have it included. Otherwise you'd just have spend time downloading the dependency you're not gonna use, make sure you don't accidentally install it over the version you have, etc..

Also, those other things you want bundled are probably neither developed nor maintained by the developers of thing you want them bundled with. So now you're expecting every single developer to keep track of the latest version of every single other developer's software and update their own package just to include the latest of some other package.

And then what about licensing issues, what if they legally can't bundle it, or they're worried that the thing they're bundling has bugs or security issues that people will then blame them for including when they were just packaging some other developer's faulty package?

It's pretty standard for dependencies to NOT be included, whether for SDKs, source code, or even compiled programs (hence DLLs), precisely so you can pick and choose which versions to get and such.

If you want things bundled, you probably shouldn't be looking at the official sites, because they're only going to be offering their own software. If you want bundles of different developers software, you should be looking for third-party packages that include them all -- for example, Lisp In A Box which comes with an editor and some plugins.
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massive
Captain Ass Kicking Asshole


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Location: at Des'
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:01 pm 
Post subject: Re: A Programmer's Rant
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Stealth wrote:


-I shall stab every man that makes documentation guides with shitty documentation.



Dude, that link had BLUE section headers and PINK warning sections?? What MORE could you possibly want?

Hint: Get an old computer and load any flavor of Linux on it. Better yet, get another box and load BSD or Linux server. Install shit there and follow the outlines. The writers assume you are already a bad ass and have some experience... the audience they want / love / know doesn't need hand holding and they would catch shit if they took the time to document like you know zip.

Really, it all goes back to fucking triangles and that's who you need to focus your anger on.
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ChrisT
John Jameson
<font color=#50C5FF><b>John Jameson</b></font>


Joined: 16 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Save your time & energy and code in Linux. I may be able to forgive you for coding on OSX. But windows? Coding in windows is for CS101 kids, and Microsoft employees.

Sorry everyone is shooting down your vent post!
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Vlad Piranha
Dictator-Elect
Dictator-Elect


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Sector C Test Labs.
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:26 pm 
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This is what Torque 3D documentation has been doing to me for two years. I've literally had to learn things from trial and error because of holes in its documentation. Now that I've actually succeeded, is it any wonder that I know how to do stuff the community doesn't even know exists? I feel like I figured out how a magic trick is done and I get the terrible sense that all development work is going to be like this. I can't help but wonder if this isn't a large part of why companies license one game engine and overhaul the thing down to its core for years. Having a piece of software organized in a way that suits you and bends easily to your will is a godsend.
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tru.pairadocs
Backstabbing Turd-nugget Spymaster


Joined: 12 Oct 2011
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:43 pm 
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I had to use Django 2 years ago for a Python class, I still shudder remembering how horrible some of the documentations were


On a side note though learning about git would be extremely useful and worth your time:
A) You'd learn how a repository system works and how powerful they are
B) Many projects these days have you just grab their code from their git repo to give you the latest version, so you'll probably run into this frequently
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Stealth
▲RAWR TRIANGLE RAWR▲


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Excellent. I picked some pretty extreme points that I know that programmers are vastly against for the purpose of this discussion and my learning.

I've been learning different programming languages on my own for years now but could never develop the common knowledge things people learn from being around programmers (like in a class or group discussions) due to lack of conversations. Obviously with this post it doesn't look like it and that's why I need help.

Anyways, let's hop to it:


Messy Recipe wrote:
lmao bundling


Bundling was a poor word choice as it implies they're together, but independent. However, using the example I provided, wouldn't it be easier to simply include it into itself for the sake of preventing future problems?

It's like when I open 2010 Maya work in 2013, it tells me that it's 2010, but still opens it.

Massive And Vlad wrote:
Documentation


This has some pretty awesome documentation:

http://docs.oracle.com/javase/

http://usa.autodesk.com/support/documentation/

Though I probably should have went with SQL as it's more popular, but I needed to use my fluency in Python and people kept telling me Django, which is increasing in popularity, so it's probably not there yet.

ChrisT wrote:
Get a Linux box


While this is true, it shouldn't matter. I know it'll naturally work better and that's why it's easier and recommended.

I moved from TN to FL with little in my possession. I have no extra boxes lying around unless I reformat my PC (Though lately, I'm thinking I should.)

Pairadocs wrote:
Git


Git has been something I've been experimenting with for a while now. I had a long conversation with a lead programmer for a job back in Feb. I've learned it can be powerful in sharing the versions of the software you are coding and they used it frequently.

However, I've been unable to use it effectively as he described. Without programming buddies, I rarely know of existing databases, plugins, source codes, etc.
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massive
Captain Ass Kicking Asshole


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Location: at Des'
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:04 am 
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Stealth wrote:

Massive And Vlad wrote:
Documentation


This has some pretty awesome documentation:

http://docs.oracle.com/javase/

http://usa.autodesk.com/support/documentation/



^^ Commercial apps - of course they are gonna have coherent documentation


And don't reformat, just get a 2nd HDD and use a boot manager
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Vlad Piranha wrote:
I'm offended that a zombie holocaust isn't on the list. It would be terrifying, sure, but it would be pretty sweet if you think about it.
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ChrisT
John Jameson
<font color=#50C5FF><b>John Jameson</b></font>


Joined: 16 Mar 2005
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Stealth wrote:
Messy Recipe wrote:
lmao bundling

Bundling was a poor word choice as it implies they're together, but independent. However, using the example I provided, wouldn't it be easier to simply include it into itself for the sake of preventing future problems?

It's like when I open 2010 Maya work in 2013, it tells me that it's 2010, but still opens it.

I might just be overlooking something, but the only dependency I saw was Python and an unzipping tool (tar)? Python is the language/framework you need to run the installing script.

Also bundling is HIGHLY discouraged with open source items. Think LEGOS, you can build some amazing things with all the pieces. You don't want to buy a pre-assembled castle when all you're trying to do is build a 5 block house.

Stealth wrote:
ChrisT wrote:
Get a Linux box

While this is true, it shouldn't matter. I know it'll naturally work better and that's why it's easier and recommended.

I moved from TN to FL with little in my possession. I have no extra boxes lying around unless I reformat my PC (Though lately, I'm thinking I should.)

Why not get VMplayer or Virtualbox and create a Linux image you can program in? Start off with some easy distro and learn the basic commands. You really shouldn't need more than 20GB of freespace for the entire VM.


I feel like you are looking at open source projects and expecting the same level of documentation/how to/support as paid software. Remember those English papers you didn't give a shit about? That's how programmers usually feel about documentation. If I don't have a boss requiring me to write it you are going to get the version I wrote on post it notes.
Because the less time I spend coding the less time I can spend making the software better (which is really what we all care about). You'll get the basics, and it's up to you to figure out how you're going to use them.

I realize it's a big hurdle getting started, but we're here for you!
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